We are not sustainable And neither is any other device maker. This industry is full of “feel good” messaging, but generates 50 million metric tons of e-waste each year. We believe the best way to reduce environmental impact is to create products that last longer, meaning fewer new ones need to be made. Instead of operating on feels, we operate on data and actions. With funding from Intel, we commissioned Fraunhofer IZM to do a detailed life cycle analysis (LCA) on Framework Laptop 13 to help us understand where we are today and where we can continue to improve. Check out our thoughts on reducing environmental impact and download the LCA report here…
Overall, they seem to be doing the right things for long-term ownership and repairability. As new hardware manufacturers, they’re going to have a couple issues, just like their rechargeable bios battery design, but they’ve handled them well.
I would like them to open source their schematics, but they have contractual obligations preventing them from doing so, so making the schematics open after signing an NDA is a fair middle ground, and more than any other company will do. So kudos for that
I personally own a framework, and worked with them to fix a charging issue, and they did all the right things, professional, no issues at all.
One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that’s a small thing.
They are a startup, so you always have to question what revenue streams they’re envisioning long-term.
They’re my kind of crazy: I hope they succeed, at least I hope they start industry trend for repairability and long-term ownership.
It would be amazing if they succeeded. Would be nice to be able to grab the motherboard of your old laptop and recycle it into a home server type device, sell your display to someone that can easily use it for personal projects, etc.
If they do it right their old boards could be used for the kind of stuff people buy raspberry pi’s for as well.
That is already being done right now.
You can fashion your old Mainboard into a home server. For example by using their case made in collaboration with I think CooperMaster but you can also 3D print it yourself.
The displays are just standard eDP connectors. So anyone could use that as well with a cheap board.
Yeah, I saw hobbyists are doing it already, but it you could use mass produced cases to fit them in any form factor it opens up the possibility for long term use of motherboards that would end up scrapped otherwise.
100% agreed. If they could come up with some GPL3 framework foundation, that open source to schematic designs, after I don’t know 5 years. So the designs are older, but it’s open, so that people can fashion all of their devices into completely reusable modules. I’d love that.
They’re doing a reasonable job by open sourcing their interfaces, which is good.
One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that’s a small thing.
It’s a major issue for me - currently I’m keeping my old x230 alive, but eventually that’ll have to be replaced.
I’m running it with heads, which allows me to do secure boot under my control. I don’t really want to have my main notebook without that nowadays.
I don’t like any of the current notebook keyboards, so it’ll be a “build yourself” project anyway - and the framework mainboard would be nice as they keep the dimensions stable, even though I’m not a fan of some other hardware choices.
My impression of the GitHub discussion on core boot, was that it’s on their backlog. But one of the bug submitters was very vocal, would a commitments, and basically got the developers to close the issue kind of emotionally.
I think it’s something they want to do, long-term, but they’re not actively working on it.
Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?
Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?
I’m generally not a friend of their USB-C expansion modules - which is mainly due to lots of experience trying to expand older notebooks with USB stuff. USB is not designed for devices to keep a state over suspends, so depending on what kind of hardware you plug in you get interesting results. This may be better with current spec (at least I hope they fixed some of that stuff when they worked on USB-C docking), but given how much I’ve seen fail I don’t feel comfortable to fully rely on that.
I’d have preferred to have a few more mPCIe-slots (I think they just have one for the WLan module), and more storage slots (which I think they finally fixed with the latest mainboard version with two NVME slots). Also what they’ve done about the connection for the separate graphics card might solve my complaints about lack of mPCIe-slots.
If we not only look at the mainboard, but the complete notebook - I don’t like the keyboard, the screen, the case in general, and the fixed battery - but unfortunately all those are bad on pretty much any notebook younger than 10 years.
I should add, no matter how much I agree with the company, I won’t do pre-orders. I know framework is my kind of crazy, I can’t encourage anybody to do a pre-order either.
I bought my framework from in stock series 13s.
There’s too much risk tying up capital for months, plus you lose your credit card protections, when it’s been over 30 days. If I buy an in stock unit, have it delivered, and it’s terrible, worst case scenario I do a credit card charge back. I’d lose that capability if I do a pre-order 345 months out.
If you preorder, just 100 $/€ are taken from your credit card. The rest is booked shortly before the device gets shipped. So, your risk is 100$/€ if they went bankrupt before you get your device. I have seen worse, imho.
I say we celebrate their successes! Don’t let perfection be the enemy of progress; the fact that they’re trying to do something about sustainability is far more than can be said for most laptop manufacturers, and the more the industry sees them succeed, the more it will follow suite.
I purchased a 1st gen Framework in early 2022 because I strongly believe in the ethos of the company and even though I didn’t really need a laptop, I wanted to support the company.
Overall I’m quite happy with the laptop, there are definitely a few things that weren’t great on the 1st gen units, such as the speakers, hinges, and the battery life. Some of those I have since upgraded as they improved them in later years, and it now meets my needs pretty well.
Framework: We design our products to last, to reduce e-waste
Enthusiasts: buys their products even though they don’t need new ones, just because they’re cool, producing more e-waste in the process
/s
ultimately a lot of choice is left in the hands of the consumer
It’s true. My previous laptop was getting up there in age but it still had probably a year or two left of casual use after I replaced the battery. Thankfully my father found a use for it with one of his projects. Now I’m eyeing Framework’s new Ryzen mainboards and thinking of upgrading despite just buying this laptop last year. Yeah I can use my old mainboard as a home server, but I’ve been doing just fine without one.
If I do decide to upgrade, I don’t know how I’ll justify my subsequent upgrade until things stop working.
I think they’re the go-to company if you want to get a laptop in 2023. I got my unit back in 2021 and used it every day since, and it has taken quite a beating. It went though several light impacts and one big drop but the only thing to show for it is a small dent on the back.
My only two complaints are
- After a year, the USB-C cable supplied with the laptop started to split open. I don’t know if this is only a defect in early batches but it’s worth noting.
- Suspend on Linux is an issue. Linux works great but it doesn’t suspend properly. Putting in this command as root
echo "deep" > /sys/power/mem_sleepwhich makes your system use deep sleep instead of s2idle which solved the issue but waking up from suspend is now 8-10 seconds instead of 2 seconds.
I expect these hardware issues and more to be fixed on newer boards and the framework 16 but I’ll continue to use my 13 and upgrade to an AMD board and use my intel board to make a mini PC. There’s really no reason to buy Dell, HP, or Lenovo anymore now that framework exist and has delivered on all their promises.
That sounds annoying, but manageable. To be fair, I’ve never had a Linux system that did suspend gracefully, so I’ve started to suspect it’s more a software issue with Linux in general.
I got one of the first gen models, and I have been totally sold ever since. Yeah, there are laptops with more ports, but it’s harder to find a laptop with a wider variety of ports.
I love that the laptop is customizable and totally serviceable. As someone who has been dismantling and fixing their own laptops for a long time, watching the industry get more and more unfriendly has been disheartening.
Framework is a breath of fresh air. Even if they fail eventually, I will still be happy to have given them my money because this is an incredible laptop. Excited to see the 16.
I think they need to hurry and offer it in more countries. Been seeing the “we don’t sell in your country” message for too long now.
I’m going to get one for my next laptop.
This is the only reason I haven’t bought one yet. I have no use/need for a new laptop, but really like the idea at the very least over… every other manufacturer really.
Being able to choose/swap out ports alone would be fantastic.
Same. I love my Thinkpad and absolutely will continue to buy them but I really like what framework is doing.
From linux perspective which is better, Framework or System76?
I have been looking to upgrade my laptop (i5-8250U) with something decent. I don’t game, so dont require heavy graphics that draws too much power.
For Linux support alone, System76 is better, because Framework’s resolution is a bit awkward, whether it’s 13" or 16".
Will have to dig about this. One of my primary reasons I want to upgrade is my laptop has a shitty 720p (1344x768) resolution.
I am looking for an absolute gorgeous display for my next laptop since I have the money to spare.
System76 is a bit strange. Their laptops are more expensive than other windows brands, while offering Linux. I’m not sure if it’s really worth going with them, as a lot of other laptops ca work with Linux. Tho maybe I missed something about their laptops.
Framework I think I saw some Poole saying it has some issues running Linux with some component incompatibilities. Tho you may want to do more research, maybe even opening some reddit threads and dodging useless comments.
I honestly dont mind paying a bit premium to System76 if they have good quality and better support for Linux.
I have grown tired of the cheap hinges that have been plaguing laptops.
Yeah… I’m not sure about the quality being really better than competition. Tho maybe Linux support may be better depending on what components different laptops use.
I’m 90% sure all of System76’s offerings are rebadged Clevo laptops.
There’s an explanation of the relationship floating somewhere online, but yeah. S76 works with Clevo to design their products, then does the software and firmware support in-house. Clevo will offer their own product reusing portions—i.e. the chassis—of the S76 model.
The system76 system at least assures you that it will work with Linux. There are some stories here and there about some laptop part not working beacuse of lack of support for Linux. Other than that i see no reason at all and likely any other laptop will work with linux as well , its just not as certain.
My experience with Linux on my Framework has been pretty good but admittedly not perfect. If you want an idea you can check out the Arch Wiki’s Framework page. Personally I think the repairability and upgradability of Framework outweighs the marginal increased Linux support you get with System76 (assuming they have no issues), but Linux isn’t as big a priority for Framework as it is for System76.
These laptops look extremely affordable and I like how modular they are. The next time I need to replace my laptop I’ll probably go with Framework.
When i ordered mine, they didnt have a US version. So i ordered a German model, and a keyboard (the German Model was overstock and discounted). And just swapped the keyboard.
It took about 30 minutes and probably 100 screws but it was simple.
My laptop is 4 years old at this point. I spent $2400 on it before I wanted something future proof, and while it’s still plenty fast with it’s 10th gen Intel processor and 32gb ram, knowing that I could drop $500 and upgrade to the latest AMD or Intel chip makes me wish I could have held out another year and gotten the framework.
Given that we’ve more or less peaked in terms of non-gaming performance I probably won’t be buying another laptop until this one dies but my next laptop will be a framework without question as well.
There will certainly be things that make both games and non-games faster. We’re not at the limit of packaging density yet, and a lot of non-gaming workloads can take more advantage of multiple cores. Games tend to only take advantage of the number of cores available to them in whatever the latest generation of consoles have.
That said, laptops tend to get bounded by their ability to get rid of heat more than anything else. My Framework (an Intel 1280P) underclocks itself to 3GHz under sustained loads (from a max of 4.8GHz). Top end CPU is a bit of a waste with the amount of space it could possibly use to cool itself.
I like the aim and ethos, but not so much the design (other than interesting modularity) and certain things rub me the wrong way. And the pricing is just very out of line.
In the end, I’ll just continue to do what I have been and keep old laptops running as long as possible. Have been using old IT-recycled housings or eBay purchases of “just the right thing” and swapped parts around, rebuilt the OS, etc. That’s where much of the fun is anyway, heh.
I do wish the Fairphone were easier to come by in the US, tho.
And the pricing is just very out of line.
It’s not really. You’re just used to subsidized pricing. Framework doesn’t give you a computer with bullshit anti-malware trial things or whatever other bullshit manufacturers install these days plus Microsoft bulk pricing. If you compare the a Dell Inspiron 5630 to the a similarly spec’d framework, the framework is only like $100-150 more dollars.
if i need a new laptop i’d save for a framework laptop
This should be the mandatory way for all computing. Hell, all products
I am not in the market for a new laptop at the moment, but my next one is very likely to be a Framework. At least if they decide to add Nordic keyboard and support shipping to Denmark.
The number one problem of modern appliance is indeed longevity I’d say. The so called “planned obsolescence” is probably what mainly drives or consumption of electronics and, accordingly, our production of e-waste. But Framework might just be saying that for green washing purposes.
If I need a new laptop, I’ll most likely get a Framework. Not only the upgradability repairability, but the upgradability is second to none.
The one complaint I have is that the Ethernet module sticks out of the device. Seems like an oversight to make them so thin so they can’t fit an RJ-45 port. Maybe they’ll develop a module with a little flap like seen on some thin laptops with an RJ-45 port.
