Calling people stupid and lazy in nicer words is still calling people stupid and lazy.
I think that’s a bit unfair here. What I’m saying is that expectations often seems to be that “Linux should be effortless, but it isn’t, so Linux sucks”, and then we quickly talk past each other on which aspects we are referring to. Let me make up three categories:
For users transitioning to Linux from Windows, and …
… it shouldn’t be an effort, but unfortunately sometimes is frustrating or annoying
Hardware control, e.g. drivers. More often than not it works with less effort than on Windows, except for very new hardware, and hardware that actually requires specific software (RGB led patterns, Gaming mouse profiles, all that stuff)
NVidia drivers can be a pain
When dual booting and Windows manages to fuck up something in Linux, and it looks like Linux is the culprit. (E.g. restart the computer from Windows, but it doesn’t release claim on hardware, which doesn’t let Linux claim it, so stuff like the WiFi adapter might not work.)
Specific software not available, like Adobe, Autodesk, etc.
.… is something you can get someone else to do for you, but it’s just how things are, unrelated to Windows -> Linux or the other way around.
Installing the OS – downloading ISO, burning a bootable USB, BIOS, etc…
… it’s expected that you figure out / learn, and if unwilling, Linux isn’t for you
Using the OS, which at the very least, cursory knowledge of the software/package manager, and roughly how this works.
Familiarizing yourself with KDE / Gnome, etc.
So, I assume people who just thought I was calling people lazy and dumb thought I meant categories 1. and 2. I just mean category 3. If you expect everything to be the same as Windows, and the effort required to understand the differences is too much, then only Windows will fit your needs. The impression I get is a general unwillingness to “figure stuff out”. Not knowing shit is fine, complaining and not wanting to put in the effort to know stuff… how is that not being lazy?
It was intended as kind advice without any the implied judgement of calling people dumb or lazy. If you don’t want to have to figure stuff out related to the third category, Linux will likely not be a good experience, or even a productive or good change. If you move to another country, you should make the effort to learn the culture. It’s not a good look to complain that things are different.
If I were to try to suggest “a point” with all of this: Don’t suggest to people that Linux is effortless for Windows users. Linux is immensely better, in almost every way (though mind examples in first category). But, it requires learning the basics of how shit works. It’s not hard… the information is well put together and available.
Agreed, it not fair and I appreciate the breakdown. I just get frustrated with the (more common on Lemmy) attitude that it’s up to users to deal with linux’ many many shortcomings for daily use that are in your category 1, especially.
i mean it depends on how you define common, common among the world populous? No, common among fabrication types? Yes.
there are only a few things that are common amongst the whole human population, and none of them are learned skills. (learned as in learned from the ground up, to be able to do that one specific thing I.E. socialization doesn’t count as it’s a fundamental aspect of humanity)
In a world where every tech company sells itself on simplicity, one man has the tenacity to stand up form what’s right to him: telling other people they just should try harder!
If people didn’t come out of the woodwork to tell people welding was so simple that their 5 year could do it then maybe they’d be less turned off by the time and effort it takes to learn it.
i think there is a fundamental reason why linux is a good operating system. It’s the same reason that vehicles from the 70s and 80s are so beloved, because they’re easy to repair. Hell you could probably rebuild one in your garage, sure you’d need some level of knowledge to do so. But it’s all out there, and very easy to access, and same for the parts.
I think linux is very similar in this regard, part of what makes it so good, is being so familiar with it. Windows doesn’t let you do this, because it doesn’t want you to. Linux does, because you’re supposed to, and i would argue that telling people linux is a “turn key” solution is rather irresponsible when inevitably, they’ll want to do something weird or have to fix a weird problem which will require them to go digging around somewhere.
I also don’t think the basic concepts of linux are all that complicated, two weeks and a vm to install arch and you’ve got most of the foundational concepts in your head already.
You gotta set the bar far, far lower. Hell being able to set up a VM easoly in a Windows home license machine is still something relatively recent, without using specialized software.
If Linux only appeals to tinkers then it will see about as much market share as 80s cars as well, and peak at single digits.
If you are someone technically inclined, I totally agree with you. But I think the newer distros in the past few years that are basically good to go after install, and feature application stores linked to reputable repos, etc, are the way forward. This takes a lot of the confusion and, frankly, fear out of attempting to use Linux for your average user.
i think the distros that “just work” are a great way to get into linux, but i do still think it’s something that you need to familiarize yourself with. It’s like driving a car, if you want to go somewhere in the US, you’re gonna need to know how to do it.
True. But by the same token, if you attain a similarly high level of knowledge about Windows, you can do much of the same stuff. Including debloating it.
I mainly say this because I would love nothing more than swapping my relatives machines to Linux, but when something breaks it can be BAD and they are missing that basic background thst 3+ decades on Windows has earned them.
you can debloat windows, yeah. But it might also install malware on your system, or irreversibly break windows as microsoft is well known for not breaking things
you could try and debug issues, i guess. Good luck. You could use a software repository, there are three to choose from!
Windows is theoretically built in a modular manner that prevents things from being weirdly placed and hard to track down, but it isn’t adhered too!
Most problems with windows, are ironically, not really a problem with windows. But a problem with microsoft specifically, or the way that software is developed for windows.
Calling people stupid and lazy in nicer words is still calling people stupid and lazy.
I think that’s a bit unfair here. What I’m saying is that expectations often seems to be that “Linux should be effortless, but it isn’t, so Linux sucks”, and then we quickly talk past each other on which aspects we are referring to. Let me make up three categories:
For users transitioning to Linux from Windows, and …
So, I assume people who just thought I was calling people lazy and dumb thought I meant categories 1. and 2. I just mean category 3. If you expect everything to be the same as Windows, and the effort required to understand the differences is too much, then only Windows will fit your needs. The impression I get is a general unwillingness to “figure stuff out”. Not knowing shit is fine, complaining and not wanting to put in the effort to know stuff… how is that not being lazy?
It was intended as kind advice without any the implied judgement of calling people dumb or lazy. If you don’t want to have to figure stuff out related to the third category, Linux will likely not be a good experience, or even a productive or good change. If you move to another country, you should make the effort to learn the culture. It’s not a good look to complain that things are different.
If I were to try to suggest “a point” with all of this: Don’t suggest to people that Linux is effortless for Windows users. Linux is immensely better, in almost every way (though mind examples in first category). But, it requires learning the basics of how shit works. It’s not hard… the information is well put together and available.
Agreed, it not fair and I appreciate the breakdown. I just get frustrated with the (more common on Lemmy) attitude that it’s up to users to deal with linux’ many many shortcomings for daily use that are in your category 1, especially.
I appreciate that your appreciated the breakdown!
i see no problem with that. You can’t go learn to weld without putting in lots of effort and time learning.
It’s really just that simple.
There’s a reason welding is not a common skill.
If you’re trying to proliferate welding, maybe this is a bad approach?
i mean it depends on how you define common, common among the world populous? No, common among fabrication types? Yes.
there are only a few things that are common amongst the whole human population, and none of them are learned skills. (learned as in learned from the ground up, to be able to do that one specific thing I.E. socialization doesn’t count as it’s a fundamental aspect of humanity)
In a world where every tech company sells itself on simplicity, one man has the tenacity to stand up form what’s right to him: telling other people they just should try harder!
based and gigachad
If people didn’t come out of the woodwork to tell people welding was so simple that their 5 year could do it then maybe they’d be less turned off by the time and effort it takes to learn it.
i think there is a fundamental reason why linux is a good operating system. It’s the same reason that vehicles from the 70s and 80s are so beloved, because they’re easy to repair. Hell you could probably rebuild one in your garage, sure you’d need some level of knowledge to do so. But it’s all out there, and very easy to access, and same for the parts.
I think linux is very similar in this regard, part of what makes it so good, is being so familiar with it. Windows doesn’t let you do this, because it doesn’t want you to. Linux does, because you’re supposed to, and i would argue that telling people linux is a “turn key” solution is rather irresponsible when inevitably, they’ll want to do something weird or have to fix a weird problem which will require them to go digging around somewhere.
I also don’t think the basic concepts of linux are all that complicated, two weeks and a vm to install arch and you’ve got most of the foundational concepts in your head already.
A vee emm you say?
Can I get that on the app store?
…
You gotta set the bar far, far lower. Hell being able to set up a VM easoly in a Windows home license machine is still something relatively recent, without using specialized software.
If Linux only appeals to tinkers then it will see about as much market share as 80s cars as well, and peak at single digits.
If you are someone technically inclined, I totally agree with you. But I think the newer distros in the past few years that are basically good to go after install, and feature application stores linked to reputable repos, etc, are the way forward. This takes a lot of the confusion and, frankly, fear out of attempting to use Linux for your average user.
i think the distros that “just work” are a great way to get into linux, but i do still think it’s something that you need to familiarize yourself with. It’s like driving a car, if you want to go somewhere in the US, you’re gonna need to know how to do it.
True. But by the same token, if you attain a similarly high level of knowledge about Windows, you can do much of the same stuff. Including debloating it.
I mainly say this because I would love nothing more than swapping my relatives machines to Linux, but when something breaks it can be BAD and they are missing that basic background thst 3+ decades on Windows has earned them.
you can debloat windows, yeah. But it might also install malware on your system, or irreversibly break windows as microsoft is well known for not breaking things
you could try and debug issues, i guess. Good luck. You could use a software repository, there are three to choose from!
Windows is theoretically built in a modular manner that prevents things from being weirdly placed and hard to track down, but it isn’t adhered too!
Most problems with windows, are ironically, not really a problem with windows. But a problem with microsoft specifically, or the way that software is developed for windows.