Something that i find prettyd disgusting these days is how certain people put their political ideologies / viewpoints over human lives, for example, celebrating the russian invasion of ukraine because it is “a blow against US / NATO imperialism” completely ignoring all the warcrimes, the deaths, and the suffering generated by that war, the same happening with the palestinian genocide because “Israel is the only working democracy on the middle east”, acting like their ideoligies are going to bring back to life all the dead people somehow
Speaking of the Russian invasion of Ukraine… A lot fewer people would have died if Ukraine had surrendered immediately. About 200,000 Russian soldiers’ lives would have been saved, and I find it rather unlikely that Putin’s repressive measures would have killed more Ukrainians than that. But somehow in this case I find myself putting my ideology over human lives.
Not all ideologies are the same, of course, but you should still consider whether you only see people you disagree with putting ideology over human lives because when you put your own ideology over human lives, it seems so obvious and natural that you don’t think about it.
Putin also could have … Not invaded ?? & the lives of those Russian soldiers would have been spared.
True but not relevant to the point being made.
It is perfectly relevant. Putin, and thus the rest of the Russian political machine that backed him up, chose to put ideology (his personal agenda of territorial expansion) over human lives (of both Ukrainian and Russian). Can one really fault Ukraine for making the decision to fight back when the decision was already made for them? From some philosophical point of view, one could then put the ‘blame’ on both- since both have chosen to put ideology above lives and extend the fighting. However, one forced the decision of the other. Blame cannot be equally assigned, when the blame didn’t even exist until the unilateral action of one party.
The concept of “ideology” is perhaps too narrow a definition for such a situation as Ukraine, however. Most people boil it down online to just “Western proxy war vs Russia”, but it is more than just politics, it is the threat of extinction of Ukraine’s independent self-determination, freedom of expression, and ethnic distinctiveness.
I think Timwi was getting at this part of ArbitraryValue’s comment:
Also worth emphasizing that they specifically say this preceding that:
In other words, unless I’m mistaken, even supposing their thought might somehow hold true that Ukraine’s surrender would save lives, they maintain support for Ukraine’s fight against Russia as they’re putting their ideology over human lives. Nevertheless, they think it’s important to recognize that they are doing this, rather than think there is no ideology in play whatsoever in their position.
It’s not necessarily the best way to have approached this given the charged topic (particularly framing it as a certainty of far fewer lost lives), but I think that point is worth remembering. Introspection is especially important in serious matters, otherwise you lose sight of what you’re really fighting for.
No-one (but you) said “fault”.
The message you responded to only pointed out that the Ukrainians, too, put ideology above human lives. If you can’t fault the Ukrainians for fighting the Russians, then you can’t fault them for putting ideology above human lives.
Ah yes Russian soldiers are known for their mercy and self restraint. Even if Ukraine surrendered Russian soldiers would have continued committing crimes against humanity. Children would still be kidnapped, women would still be raped and men would still be tortured to death.
Neville Chamberlain called, he wants to club you over the head with a history book.