- cross-posted to:
- tech@kbin.social
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https://www.nissanusa.com/privacy.html
Sensitive personal information, including driver’s license number, national or state identification number, citizenship status, immigration status, race, national origin, religious or philosophical beliefs, sexual orientation, sexual activity, precise geolocation, health diagnosis data, and genetic information.
Please make this reach the front page because it’s beyond ridiculous
If you don’t mind, please also highlight
health diagnosis data
genetic information
Because omfg, think about those for a second, and how any data that leaves your control is subject to eventual collection by law enforcement, legal or not, and anyone else willing to pay for it (or steal it):
For example, some bonehead rears your vehicle one day, but your health diagnosis data says you have a heart condition, or maybe just high blood pressure. These conditions can involve occasional lightheadedness, though you know yours is well controlled. You don’t even think about it anymore because you take care of yourself and all your regular tests are good. But suddenly, you’re in this minor accident, not even your fault, and it’s no longer a simple rearending because some asshole has brought your health history into it so that YOU and not he will be on the hook for monetary damages.
(Triple if the bozo who hit you is some lame ass drunk rural county sheriff or elected official.)
And “genetic information” is code for DNA. How they would collect your DNA from your car I don’t know, but do you REALLY want your genetic information associated with your vehicle and outside the confines of GINA* for the convenience of data sellers? I know I don’t. (GINA is also the law that binds companies like 23andMe from selling your genetic data.) But the whole point of trying to legislate personal control over your own genetic information is because of all the dystopian scenarios that can easily evolve from others having it without your consent.
Yet now your car wants it too? Question this. Letting anyone have it by such means does a complete end run around any law meant to keep your personal genetic information private, and guts any rights you may have to your own privacy under the law, because you signed it away. Imagine the billions insurance companies could make, both health and auto, by refusing to pay for this or that because genetically it was a “pre-existing condition” or a “contributing factor” to you getting rearended by a drunk.
I’ve never been so thrilled to drive an ancient beater in my life.
*Note: GINA is weak already, but legislators are trying to weaken it further still: in 2018 a proposed change meant that “Employers would have been able to demand workers’ genetic test results if the bill were to have been enacted.”
How and where are they actually capturing that data exactly?
I don’t know where you live, but it already illegal to hide any health data from road authorities in many countries like UK. If you get a lightheadedness from a know diagnosis and get into a crash, you will not only be prosecuted for the crash itself, but also for fraud that you’re unfit to drive. Double criminal sentence, enjoy!
To be fair the UK is farther along the dystopian nightmare surveillance state path than the US.
Not really.
K
I don’t want to edit the post but consider as if it was done, thanks for the addition
At the very least… cant the US implement one of the basic rules from GDPR?
In simple terms, what data can companies keep?
Data need to have: OK
Data nice to have: Not OK
The US will absolutely not implement anything remotely like GDPR, because that would hurt the profits of a LOT of companies who happen to have a LOT of lobbyists on K street.
I’d much rather they implement the right to deletion. I know they will get their hands on a ton of data, regardless of how we write the clause. But at least let me delete that data when I want it gone.
GDPR includes right to delete data too.
I know, this was inresponse to the other post about which parts of the GDPR to implement. If I had to pick any one feature to carry over from the GDPR into whatever legislation we get on this side of the ocean, I’d pick the right to deletion.
And how often will you have to keep asking for your data to be deleted?
No matter how often you ask or what the answer is, you likely won’t be able to tell if it has actually been deleted anyway.
Companies are held to certain expedience standards when it comes to removal. If you request it and the company doesn’t delete within the described maximum time, they will get fined under GDPR.
How would your car even know your sexual activity?
Per the article…
They can collect personal information from how you interact with your car, the connected services you use in your car, the car’s app (which provides a gateway to information on your phone), and can gather even more information about you from third party sources like Sirius XM or Google Maps.
In addition, my car uses text-to-speech to read texts to me and I can even reply to them with speech-to-text. Any data that passes from your phone through your car could easily be harvested. You should also assume that any data on your phone can be harvested by the car’s app if you install it.
How does it know the information is medical or genetic, if it captures text messages?
Any information they get is going to be examined for keywords at the very minimum. If, for example, you text your wife about test results from the doctor’s office, they can add that to the profile they’re making of you. If you get a text from a cardiologists office saying your results are in, they can infer you have heart troubles. Things like that.
I have no facts, but I assume via cameras which might record whatever you’re doing in the car.
I was real curious about that too. Seems like its just a disclaimer that ya might get hacked and have you car sex leaked on pornhub.
by you parking four hours infront of a known brothel or by you shagging someone on the backseat of your char, clearly. /some sarcasm in there
How do they even capture this stuff? Are you expected to write some essays before you can buy the car?
Meh, it’s a CYA policy. They’re not actively collecting that data, but if you mention something in those categories in an email, chat, phone call, etc to a Nissan employee, that data might be stored.
BuT tHeY nEeD tHaT sO tHeY kNoW hOw nOt tO dIsCrImInAtE aGaInSt yOu.
I don’t see how the things you highlighted are worse than any of the rest of it.
It’s all bad.
I got an email from OnStar the other day saying it contacted my bank and updated my card info because I had gotten an old card and hadn’t updated the info, I don’t pay for OnStar but the dealership MAKES you set it up even if you don’t use it.
How the fuck are they allowed to contact my bank and get information like that? Weirded my TF out to say the least.
They did that to me. I specifically gave them a card I knew was going to expire before the trial period was over and they got the new information anyway.
If I remember correctly, it’s a “feature” the credit card companies have so your subscriptions don’t lapse.
How is that fucking legal?
This is more based on authorization vs CC details. It’s much safer for a company than holding onto credit card numbers. Creating a subscriptions generates an authorization code which is good for the account, not just a specific card number. Revoking that authorization is a separate call to the bank rather than just having a credit card replaced.
That authorization shouldn’t be indefinite either though. After three years of no activity and a card expiring, OnStar was still able to make a charge to renew that trial subscription.
And looking around the web, there are a few stories from that 2016 time frame to indicate that it was a new-ish, or at least not well known, practice at the time.
Yeah and it’s very useful, looks like this place is just as bad with the kids as that other place.
The fuck are you talking about?
Credit cards have actually been doing that for years. It’s a feature for recurring payments to reduce the amount of trouble users had when their CC number was compromised or it expired.
Yeah, it sucks too. A couple years ago I was trying to get out of a Sirius Satellite subscription I had opted into during the height of the rony 'rona.
Instead of sitting on the phone with CSRs for hours on end while they pass me around and offer me incentives to stay, I thought I’d be smart and report that my credit card was lost. (At the time you couldn’t disenroll online, that changed I happily found out a few months ago)
Joke was on me though. Sirius updated my new card info, and I was without a credit card for ~8 days.
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Authorizations are different from CC details.
You can call a bank and cancel an authorization without canceling a card.
By design and commonly accepted on recurring payments. Not even remotely new or connected with OnStar.
I’m not sure when you purchased your vehicle, but when I purchased my vehicle Dec 2022 I had to do that OnStar setup crap as well and just denied giving them any information. They said I wouldn’t be able to get this or that but I didn’t care so they didn’t get that information. It took about 15 minutes with the person on the other side being a bit confused but just gave up when I said it the like 5th time.
Either way they don’t need that information at any time unless you want their free trials that are almost never worth it.
Yeah, I’d walk away from a sale before agreeing to that crap, even if they did make it mandatory.
Weirded my TF out to say the least.
Honestly that shouldn’t weird you out too much, that’s just a convenience feature. And yeah, I know, some people put quotes around the word convenience. But others actually just use the word as is, a convenience.
What should freak the hell out of you is when you and your significant other are in the car talking about buying a new pair of tennis shoes, and then that evening when you’re sitting at home YouTube shows you a commercial for tennis shoes, when you’ve never seen any ads for tennis shoes on YouTube before.
I wonder what happens if you only have a single card with no money on it.
That sounds awfully convenient and OnStar saves lives, so…
Lucky for me I can’t afford a new car anyway. I’ll just keep driving my unconnected car.
No kidding, it’s ridiculous to think they expect us to fork over $25k for cars that will invade our privacy. I have a 23 year old car I’ll drive till it’s dead before that ever happens.
25k? Lol, I wish. Average new car sale price is 48k.
Lol I won’t throw $48k at the turds on the market these days.
My coworker just bought a car and was stoaked he only paid $3000 over sticker price.
Why and how do you have a Twitter check mark next to your name?
I think it’s their profile picture.
Edit: I just got Lemmy Premium.
Mostly for shits and giggles lol.
Its their profile photo.
Same here. Its a bit shabby and heavy on gas but I can fix most things on it myself… but at least I dont have this issue
Same, it’s getting up in years and probably needs a paint job and eventually I need to change the window tint.
I will drive my 2013 Honda Fit until the wheels fall off. I love it and with a $20 Bluetooth adapter, it has all the amenities I could need. I think it’s insane that people are driving around with a tablet that controls their heat and radio.
Honda Fits are amazing little cars. I only would want them to be able to be modernized to have some of the advanced safety features like Lane keeping assist, adaptive cruise control, and automatic emergency braking like in the newer cars, but would require a redesign and additional sensors added to the windshield area.
I’m able to fit a double sided mattress box spring in it which is insane for a subcompact car. It’s a mini minivan.
I’m so glad I don’t have lane assist.
But yeah, I pass Honda minivans and think they’re fits.
HondaLink came out in 2013/2014 so your car may have wireless services, but it’s probably for an older network that mostly doesn’t exist anymore. So your car may have at one point been collecting information, just not what newer vehicles are doing today.
I did use Onstar, but when my 2013 Volt went offline because of the 3g network sunset, I lost that functionality. Would have loved the ability to upgrade the cellular module in my car so I could have the security and safety features back, but one silver lining is disconnecting :) Of course, GM was going to quietly continue charging me for the same service after the connection died, but I canceled.
It would be a long time until I get a car (because it’s convenient to live without one anyway), so I’m afraid the older “dumb cars” could become harder to buy or maintain then. I wonder if there are modern ones that you can make fully “dumb”.
Tesla is only the second product we have ever reviewed to receive all of our privacy “dings.” (The first was an AI chatbot we reviewed earlier this year.) What set them apart was earning the “untrustworthy AI” ding. The brand’s AI-powered autopilot was reportedly involved in 17 deaths and 736 crashes and is currently the subject of multiple government investigations.
How utterly unsurprising. Also,
"Consent” is an illusion
Many people have lifestyles that require driving. So unlike a smart faucet or voice assistant, you don’t have the same freedom to opt out of the whole thing and not drive a car.This is the kicker, many people need cars for unrelated reasons and the fact that ALL car brands abuse our data means there is no alternative.
What about my 14 year old Renault Kagoo?
:-)
Selling your location to the GIGN, believe it or not
The first point is beyond stupid IMO when the bar is set at human. I’ve seen no reliable or consistent data that Teslas shitty autopilot is actually worse than a human. I’ve seen wild swings both ways.
The second point is, on point so to speak, and 100% should be addressed.
Missed the point on the first one. The focus was on how Tesla wasn’t leaking your privacy unnecessarily, not autopilot. Also autopilot doesn’t need to be perfect - if the miles per crashes is lower than a human then it is more safer whether you like it or not.
Thank you for that link and Thank you to Mozilla for doing those tests. I always suspected something like this but it is good to have it tested and in writing.
My only gripe with the article is this:
All of the car brands on this list except for Tesla, Renault, and Dacia signed on to a list of Consumer Protection Principles from the US automotive industry group ALLIANCE FOR AUTOMOTIVE INNOVATION, INC.
Renault and Dacia aren’t available in the US, so there is really no need for them to sign those principles. Which makes Tesla the only one where this is relevant.
Wasn’t the next line that this agreement they all signed was just something they made up and don’t actually follow and no one enforces?
Are there really 0 Renaults in the US? Or I guess maybe just a few imported ones, but like they aren’t officially sold there?
Are any other French brands available? I know at least the Germans are.
I guess French cars are too “sensible” for the US market?
Renault used to have a 46% stake in AMC back in the '80s but sold it to Chrysler and hasn’t been back since.
The only French automaker in the US is Bugatti, and it’s questionable how French they are.
I’m hoping the Stellantis merger leads to more French cars here. Peugeot, Renault, Alpine, Citroen, and DS all have cars I’d be interested in.
They’re sensible cars, do what they say on the tin and aren’t too expensive to buy and repair. Back in the days I wouldn’t buy them and preferred Japanese for reliability but I hear in more recent times they’ve become much more reliable as well.
I don’t know if there are zero Renault in the US but Mozilla themselves say that Renault aren’t sold in the US:
While Renault cars haven’t been sold in the US since 1992, their cars are big in Europe, South and Central America.
So it is kind of strange to hold it against them. On the other hand that doesn’t seem to be too important because nobody cares about what they signed or not.
Oh cool! So cars will be free now since the manufacturers are turning drivers into the product. Right? Right guys? Cars will be free?
They will be CaaS
Didn’t Tesla and others already try this (and will probably keep pushing it)?
Things like monthly subscriptions for various car features working like seat warmers.
You’re thinking of BMW for the heated seats: https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature
And Toyota for being able to remote start your car with your keyfob. https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob Which they later walked back when a lot of their customers pushed back on it: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43636/toyota-reviewing-key-fob-remote-start-subscription-plan-after-massive-blowback
Tesla has some upgrades for a one time fee - like rear seat heaters and acceleration boost, and subscription ones - premium connectivity
That would be rentals
Or a lease
CarS - cars are service
CarL - cats are liquid
US needs to regulate how data is collected by all companies. This shit is just gross. Is this perhaps one of the reasons why right to repair is opposed so strongly across industries? In addition to selling overpriced manufacturer repair they don’t want us to cripple one of their revenue streams.
From what I understand, right to repair would give consumers and independent repair shops the ability to repair their items and grant them access to schematics/repair manuals, specialty tools, and parts.
In theory, this should make it easier to develop aftermarket parts. And for electronics and software, be able to develop drop in replacements, flash aftermarket hardware, and that function of the car should still work.
In this case car manufacturers don’t want people to rip out their embedded spyware and thus uncouple them from using their data collecting phone apps.
Currently aware of at least one report of a couple of car manufacturers backing some astroturfing groups to oppose right to repair [1]
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/News/80635/car-companies-are-astroturfing-right-to-repair
US needs to regulate how data is collected by all companies. This shit is just gross.
This would be lovely, and I agree with you, but unfortunately the people scraping every inch of all of our data are the exact same people drafting legislation that they then turn over to their purchased politicians to submit with no edits.
Something needs to be done, but it can’t be done in the system as is. We need a real overhaul, at least of electors if not the system itself, before anything is going to get better.
This is definitely an off-topic, but the problem with repairs is that no one really needs them and repair support is very expensive. People are used to simply change phones every two years and change cars every 3-4 years. This is a very different market from a few decades back.
When device turn-around is so fast, most devices won’t break until their “end-of-life” of 2-3-4 years. It is better to simply offer a buy back scheme and recycle components into new phones, cars, etc. This is what consumers want and this is what companies are doing. Basically companies are doing two things: production and recycling.
This is different from days long gone when people used to buy a radio and then use it for over a decade. The business model in such climate was: production and repair. Repair requires specialty tooling and spare components and you can earn money on them. But if majority of your customers never repair anything, investment into repair will be a huge waste.
So, companies don’t like Right To Repair because it’s expensive for them. If it’s expensive, there are only two solutions: increase the prices of goods (and no one likes that, not companies, not consumers) or stop recycling and force everyone to repair (which most consumers don’t want and is an additional stress for companies).
Consumer attitudes should change for repairs to become a good option. It’s like people crying about lack of headphone jacks on the internet. Reality though? 99% of billions of people give ZERO SHIT. If people really wanted headphone jacks, they would stop buying new phones en masse and jacks would be back in days.
And it’s the same about privacy, micro-transactions, etc. No one is forcing you to play a game with micro-transactions, but most people do AND, most importantly, USE these micro-transactions. If they wouldn’t there would be no crap in the games.
What kind of fantasy land do you live in that people replace their phone every two years and car every 3 years? You might as well lease a car if you are replacing it that fast.
This might be anecdotally true in your circle but if it was true for the market at large then every manufacturer wouldn’t be forecasting major downturns in smartphone sales and the used car market wouldn’t be so far upside down as there would be a glut of supply from people selling their used car every 3 years.
I think your points about privacy features, micro transactions, and headphone jacks are valid but I think it’s a stretch to apply that to cellphones and cars and say that companies are against right to repair because of consumer attitudes. My observation is that the companies (ie John Deere) that have opposed right to repair are about protecting revenue streams from part sales and franchising/licensing fees and decreasing support costs from having to service products with non-genuine parts.
Man, how that koolaid taste to ya?
Not sure what you mean… Unless you’re telling me that you’re living under a rock.
So you’re telling me that you pay tens of thousands and still pay with privacy
I want a free car with personalised ads!
there is a car that goes 10kmph every three days untill you watch a 30 second ad about an arthritis medication
With unfettered capitalism, we are always the product in some way.
It’s the Microsoft business model taken to the extreme.
I drive 25 years old car. It was pretty expensive when it was new so it has all the features I care about. I will not buy a new car until I’m forced to. Also the option to just turn on seats heating without having to pay monthly is quite a bonus.
Absolutely. My 2006 car is in the shop right now getting fixed and will ultimately end up costing me around $3.5k. They were a bit surprised I told them to fix it, but I don’t WANT a new car. I like my car, it has all the features I want, is a manual, doesn’t connect to the internet, and most importantly, has physical buttons and dials to control everything! Overall it’s in great condition as well.
I love my car, and like you will be keeping it until it becomes prohibitively expensive to repair vs buy something else, or I can no longer get parts. Hopefully by then something will be done about the privacy and touchscreen situations.
I love my car, and like you will be keeping it until it becomes prohibitively expensive to repair vs buy something else, or I can no longer get parts.
I fully intend to keep my old cars going even past that point.
Does this apply to European cars as well? Do we need to start filing GDPR complaints against car manufacturers?
I mean, read the article and especially some of the individual reviews. GDPR is all over the place.
As a TL;DR cars made for the EU market score much better than US models, but the devil is in the details. If you’ve got some time at hand, it’s a real eye-opener to go over their summary at the very least.
Hopefully, it will apply to anything with internet connectivity and your personal data.
Don’t you just love the digital age? -_-
yeah idk why all electrical appliances need to be smart, didn’t even want that in the first place
I have to be smart so that they can spy on you. Duh!
/s
I do love the digital age and modern tech, but I understand many of the privacy concerns.
I mean there are some things that just shouldn’t be adapted into the digital world. I wouldn’t say cars are one of them, but many features most likely aren’t even being used in said vehicle by the owner.
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I understand your point, but they could also just make it more privacy friendly to the consumer. We don’t want to feel like we’re being used against our will even if we “agreed” to the terms of service.
Capitalism working as expected. 25 flavors of the same bullshit
Exaclly how I feel. Can’t buy many things because all brands of it are broken by principle.
It’s legitimately cool that buying a new car and having any self-respect whatsoever are mutually exclusive now.
Fuck cars.
lmao
I’m over here in my wife’s Hyundai smoking weed, having unprotected sex and drinking hard liquor. I can’t wait for my targeted ads. Served to me on my prison issued JPay translucent tablet. Thank god for technology.
Omg black mirror
Sometimes I’m glad I drive an old, barebones features car.
My cars best tech is the CD player lmao
Same, not exactly old but it’s a 2016 Kia Rio in the minimal configuration. Can’t say whether the electric window openers or the CD player would take the number one spot for highest technological advancement.
Sadly my 34 year old car is off the road at the moment. I loved driving it because it was so simple. Basic on/off switches. No computers.
