Yay for Firefox
Sounds like they really want people to use Firefox!
They fund Mozilla a ton on purpose. They want a small subset of people to use Firefox. It keeps them from the monopoly investigations
I knew about that. They also pay to be the default search engine on Firefox.
But my joke was that these changes make it seem like they don’t want people to use Chrome anymore and switch to Firefox instead. If users knew about this stuff and understood it, Firefox would bounce back.
I have already begun to move from Google services.
Look for other large corporations to continue this trend: offer a product to the masses for free, wait until you have little to no competitors and dominate in market share, then put it behind a pay wall or strongarm changes that most of the population doesn’t understand. Oracle did it with Java, knowing most companies were too invested to look for alternatives, and now Google is doing it with their Chrome baked-in privacy changes and ad crackdown.
I expect to see more of this trend from “free” services as the people continue to wake up and take their personal data seriously. We know the government(s) won’t do a thing to change the status quo, and I have no idea what else to do other than cry into my ramen and binge watch the death of a planet in 4K!
Unfortunately, the rich keep scarcity high to ensure they not only make the most money, but they can use less money to buy favors from those with less. Man greed sucks…
It’s even more insidious when you look at the shit Amazon does, im almost certain they hyper-aggressively track the popularity of products not made by them, ones that are made by small companies (and even individuals in some cases) for the sole purpose of seeing what’s popular with the masses and then they make their own shitty version of said product followed by undercutting the original products cost significantly. And when people go to search they of course put their shit product at the top of the search page so that’s the one the unaware will always buy. It’s kind of a genius business model if we are being honest, if you’re an absolute shit stain that completely lacks morals that is. I just can’t believe they’ve been allowed to do this for so long under the radar because I feel like I never hear people talk about that particular scummy tactic they use.
If users knew about this stuff and understood it, Firefox would bounce back.
I wish that were true. But how long have companies like Google and Meta been tracking people? Ask anyone on the street if they think Google and Meta know everything about them and they’ll say “yes but I don’t care” or “yes but it’s unavoidable”. There’s just no way people don’t know by now what incredibly invasive corporations they are. They just don’t care.
I do think they know these companies are invasive, but they don’t fully understand the ramifications of it, nor do they care to.
While I agree at some level, most users aren’t like you or me. They are my mom, my boss, my mailman. They only care about convenience, and understanding even the difference between browsers is one thing, let alone why they should use a different one. Unfortunately I don’t think that’s likely to change. If it was, Facebook wouldn’t exist, if those people cared about their online privacy they wouldn’t use the platform, but here we are
Yeah, people knew enough to ditch IE for Firefox, but I think Google’s marketing convinced everybody that Chrome was the best. Most people tell me they use Chrome because it’s the fastest.
Yeah early on when chrome was released I was a big proponent of it. But that was in Google’s earlier days before they adopted Microsoft’s EEE policy
Really? I always hated it. It was such a resource hog compared to Firefox, and that only got worse as Firefox improved.
My main Linux distro at the time, Fedora, wouldn’t even ship Chromium because of how difficult and inefficient it was to package. It leaves a bunch of Google crap on Mac too.
Was it better on Windows or something? Because it’s always been crap on Linux and Mac.
I made the switch a few weeks ago. While the transition was a little inconvenient, I got everything set up in maybe an hour or two. Performance was wacky for a few hours after that, but it’s settled now for my purposes.
You definitely have to finagle the browser with add-ons and other about:config things to make it work for you, but after that yeah I can say I prefer Firefox over Chrome!
Now I just need to deGoogle everything else…
I actually never stopped using Firefox. I tried Chrome/Chromium on and off since it came out in 2008, but I never understood the appeal. Chrome looks more minimal, but it always ran like crap on Linux and Mac for me. Was it better on Windows or something? The constant memes about Chrome’s RAM and CPU usage would lead me to believe it isn’t.
Check out Vivaldi
Riiiight, because Google wasn’t doing sneaky tracking shit leading up to this. This time, they’ll surely switch, all dozens of them, and a couple might even use Firefox. woohoo
Reality: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share
Someone reply to me saying they just switched to make this a perfect internet circlejerk.
Unironically, yeah, this is the nail in the coffin for me.
But think about it. You’re talking on Lemmy - currently a niche messaging board with a tech focused audience. I don’t think you’d count as the average Chrome user. Most people won’t hear about this or if they do, won’t care.
‘Average user’ just means all traits proportionally blended together, right? Lemmy users are not a huge part of the internet, but our contribution to the ‘average’ is just a big as any other person; and our opinions and knowledge and behaviour does matter. Some might argue that the opinions of tech-focused people matter more because they are more likely to influence other people about tech decisions.
So yeah, we’re a niche group - but the discussion and sharing of ideas is important.
I honestly don’t get why people think chromium browsers are good, for example Firefox in my use case is far faster than chrome… by a long shot. Also if you want to argue…
something about the way it [chrome] handles memory isolation means i get fewer blue screens at work with all my bloated browser tools loaded at the same time. I have to have ~15 tabs open. It is not my laptop, so I cant go around experimenting with plugins much.
then again who gives a flying fart if chrome tracks me while i use the same internal browser tools day in and day out?
I cannot drag my tabs out properly. Its been the dealbreaker for many years for me, they dont fix it, but i just deal with it now because google is too evik.
That was also my experience with Firefox. I tried it one time because I kept hearing it was better than chrome, and then the absolute first thing I noticed is that they can’t get tab dragging right.
I don’t care how much more “private” it is than chrome. If you can’t even get the first impression on absolute basic UI elements right, I simply have no faith in your browser
Maybe I’ll use Firefox when it matures a bit
Its been around for like 20 years though
Mostly for increased privacy but also additional features. Firefox and it’s forks are usually relatively limited in feature set.
Speed isn’t a problem on any of them for me.
Sometimes there is a proverbial straw to break a camel’s back.
I mean, for some percentage of users this will be it. Will it be a significant share of Chrome users? Probably not, but it just means those of us who got people to switch to Firefox in the 00’s and Chrome in the early 10’s need to be as vigorous with getting people off Chrome now.
I used chrome since it was launched and this summer I switched to Firefox on all devices.
I just switched my internet off!
What’s your thoughts on Orion? It’s weirdly niche, but has been killer for me.
Orion is not open source so that’s a no. There is no way to know that what they tell us is true. If they free their code it might become my go to browser as well.
There is a way to tell - just check the binary. Actually, you need to check binaries of open source apps as well.
Check the binary for current outgoing traffic? Sure but instant traffic is not the only way to be tracked, and it is particularly difficult to get an overview for a browser.
A open source project is automatically safer to use. Sure, any binary can be injected with crap but in a closed source app there is really no way to know anything for sure.
The binary is your source. And it’s THE ONLY source of truth.
Sure the binary is what I run, but I am not following what your point is. If you are paranoid about binaries from an open source project, just compile it yourself. It’s easy. That’s just not an argument against open source.
downvoted for stating facts. I can only give you one updoot brother, you’re the hero we need.
Please, everyone, stop using Chrome. This is an easy vote with your wallet that doesn’t even require your wallet.
Complacency means the internet gets worse, ads get worse, nickel and diming gets worse. It’s the easiest chance to take a stand you’ll ever have.
I’m fairly confident no one here is using Chrome.
I use it at work because of it has the best dev tools. Although edge is pretty much the same so I could use that, but not much of an ethical upgrade.
I use it at work because of it has the best dev tools.
Every Chromium fork has those same tools.
I know that. I acknowledged that in the next sentence when I talked about edge.
But it still wouldn’t stop me from using chrome because I need to test with it. It’s what most of our end users use. I’m not about to install Vivaldi or something when we don’t even support it, and none of our users use it.
Okay so I’m just not sure what your point is then.
I am …
Serious question: let’s say I continue using Chrome and Privacy Sandbox becomes the norm. How does my internet experience get worse?
One key change in the short term is the Topics API. This is the replacement for 3rd-party cookies in Privacy Sandbox. Basically, it allows sites to query your browser directly about what topics you enjoy, and Chrome will respond with topics based on analysis of your browsing history to allow for targeted ads. If it seems strange that a new “privacy” feature is still serving up data about you for targeted ads – it is. And in fact, a lot of the proposed changes potentially just give Google more sway to act as a middleman, which ultimately gives them more data.
Will your experience change immediately? Likely not, but as with many things in this space, it’s about the dangers of the path and its longer term implications, specifically here about corporate controls and softening the definition of “privacy”.
Here’s a decent overview with more far more details.
I know what the Topics API does. I’m asking for a concrete example of exactly how it’s going to make my internet experience worse. (That Register article doesn’t provide one.)
Losing privacy makes your internet experience worse. That seems pretty clear to me, but if you don’t care about corporations being better suited to target ads to you, then I don’t think anyone would be able to convince you that these changes are bad.
I’d love to debate this with you properly but I’ve got COVID right now and don’t have the energy to put together a decent response, sorry. Basically I just don’t see how the specific features in the new Chrome build let advertisers do anything they can’t already do. I don’t see how they contribute to ads getting worse, or where “nickel and diming” comes into it.
Firefox is the way to go.
What’s Opera based on? My friends mostly use Mac, so they all use Opera and Chrome, but I have gotten them to stop using Chrome.
Nearly every browser is Chromium-based. Additionally, Opera is Chinese-owned.
So? It isn’t google. Also google and Mozilla have Asian employees so I guess you’ll have to be not racist.
I do agree that the Chinese government is problematic though.
I’d like to point out that they said nothing about it being a bad thing and that all they did was say it was Chinese-owned, hence making your comment a pointless attack of nonsense.
I’d like to point out that they said nothing about it being a bad thing
I think it’s pretty clear that that’s exactly what they were implying. What is it that you think they meant by that?
And I agree with them. I also agree that it’s not racist but anything Chinese is pretty much defacto-owned and operated by the CCP.
I personally thought they were implying that China could be a privacy concern, as you don’t have a single clue what happens with your data there. There’s zero reason to assume anything bad especially with a simple statement like that.
I personally thought they were implying that China could be a privacy concern
…and this is a good thing?
Hooray pointless-nonsense-spew!
Chromium is owned by Google. That should be bad enough
It uses Chromium as its base, so is essentially Chrome with fancy things attached to it. It uses Blink, Chrome/Chromium’s rendering engine.
We need fewer Chromium-based browsers out there. The greater marketshare they have, the easier it will be for Google to push W3C and everyone else around to conform to their desired business model.
For example, when Google inevitably pushes WEI into Chrome, WebKit and Gecko (Safari-based and Firefox-based browsers) won’t be affected at all.
If, however, 90% of all users end up on Blink (whether it’s Chrome, Opera, Vivaldi, Edge, Brave, or whatever) then Google can do whatever they want to the web.
Opera was bought by a Chinese data analytics company, and once that happened, they scrapped their engine and used chromium to save money.
They have questionable CCP ties too.
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Maybe use that information to try and influence the public in the same way that cambridge analytica did for the 2016 elections.
Someone having that data is a problem in itself
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lol. This thread is about people mad that google is doing it, and you’re saying so what if a nation state does it?
The answer is the same either way - to either sell the data to a party who want to manipulate you into doing or thinking what they want or by directly manipulating you into doing or thinking what they want.
Same with Reddit and lemmy. It doesn’t take a whole lot of investment (on a state level actor basis) to manipulate small and large communities or individuals into thinking something is normal or mainstream. Or convincing them that everyone loves this product or it’s so popular or whatever.
The CCP censors their entire internet for their people and collects all sorts of information to root out dissidents. What good thing do you think is going to come from them having that data?
Opera has unfortunately given up and switched to Chromium as its backend.
At least its not chrome
Give it time. Greed is greed, just a matter of time. Personally I’m back to use the old carrier pigeon. Kinda slow but probably still better than dialup
Edit: Either y’all don’t get this was a joke, or haven’t been alive long enough to watch your hero’s die.
Either way, fuck Google, sorry to rain on the parade
And soon, the carrier pigeon breeders will start tagging them with tracking chips…
Stooooop 😂😂😂
Carrier pigeons are still faster than the internet, tested again this year to prove it
Bandwidth, maybe, but that latency…
Or they just didn’t think it was funny…
Absolutely not. I’ve seen what you people think is funny.
oR mAyBe I JuSt got DowNvoTe brIgaDeD
Firefox gets like 90% of its revenue from Google.
Keep Firefox independent and donate: https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/?form=donate
But donating your money can not make firefox independent.It will only make firefox more revenue.
Google wants to keep mozilla afloat to stay out of anti-competitive allegations.
If mozilla gets market share, google will defund them. That mozilla have a money will help.
Also mozilla’s other projects are also good ;)
Also big CEO wallets.
Nothing in comparison to others but there is some special pay going.But it’s definitely the lesser of the evils.
Some of Mozilla’s other projects are good, iirc there was a journalist a few years ago who chronicled how Mozilla had donated a lot of money to other charities unrelated to it’s goal rather than reinvesting in the business so that it can try to ween off of Google reliance.
And the money won’t go to Firefox, but Mozilla’s other projects.
This is true. I am unsure why this comment is getting downvoted more.
Firefox has been my go-to, but I’ve left Chrome installed just to have on hand incase some website fuckiness could be solved with a browser change.
Naw. It’s not worthy of staying around even for that. Time to completely scrub my devices of google.
Feeling the same, it’s surprising how many companies are just leaning towards screwing users for a few more pennies on the dollar. Eventually, Google with be the next AOL.
Just need their Time-Warner to put the last nail in the coffin
We can only pray, the ghouls.
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I’ve been doing similar; been using Firefox, but Chrome is installed for its browser-wide automatic captioning. Not something I need often, but I rely on it for the occasional remote meeting here and there. I’m sure free automatic captioning applications exist for my operating system, but I’d have to actually test each one to see if they actually work, and it’s just been so convenient keeping Google’s around.
(Speaking of which, if anybody happens to have recommendations for free automatic captioning software that works on Ubuntu, I seem to be in the market…)
I suggest to use chromium as the backup “in case a webpage doesn’t work on Firefox” browser. All the compatibility but no telemetry.
But why use chromium or any chromium based browser since google disabled ad blocking plug-ins?
I suggest it as the backup browser. Use Firefox and if you need to open something that only works on chrome, I’d rather use chromium, so Google doesn’t rape your computer when trying to use the internet.
Eh, did they? I’m sure I still have Ublock Origin on the work browser, which is Chrome.
just fyi, when Mv3 (at least googles version of it) will completely replace Mv2 … uBO or for that matter any content/ad-blocker might not be able to perform as well on chrome based browsers.
Nah, I use Edge for that. Chrome is only for work for me, but I think I’m going to migrate to another Chromium-based browser for that.
The site you’ve linked to literally uses Facebook and Google browser trackers. Pretty hypocritical of them if you ask me.
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It’s always funny/sad to see that “we care about your privacy” doublespeak on an article about digital privacy
So my takeaway from this is to never use Chrome again? Gotcha.
If everyone who said they were going to do this actually did this, Chrome wouldn’t do this, if that makes sense.
Or, idk, regulators could like, do their jobs.
Unfortunately, if the government had one single source to secretly control/monitor the world wide web from then they would gladly stand back and do nothing.
Having said that, I truly hope I’m wrong. And they are probably already doing what I described upstream from the browser anyways.
It’s really irritating but some websites only work on Chrome for me. They range from work related to Google Meet instances. I only use it then but yeah.
Have never had an issue with degoogled chromium not working on any sites that don’t work with Firefox.
I don’t think I’ve used Google Chrome itself for over 3 years now (excluding on other people’s devices). I don’t plan to ever use it again either.
At one point I was switching back and forth, because I’d see a general decline in Firefox for some reason. I don’t know if it was just getting overloaded with extensions that were hitting its performance or if my machine itself was having problems or if Firefox’s performance was shit for awhile, but I’d switch from Firefox to Chrome, try going back to Firefox, then back to Chrome, but I’ve been with Firefox for a good few years now without issue. The browser “market” is even crowded now, there’s no reason to go back to Chrome, since there’s so many other choices out there (though avoiding Chromium might be a little bit trickier).
For people who roll their eyes when someone mentions Linux and all of the free and open source projects adjacent to it (including Firefox!), this is exactly why many people value those things. We actually can have freedom in computing and it’s worth pushing for. We don’t have to roll over simply accept what Google, Microsoft and Apple want.
But there are a few specific hardware configurations and specialized jobs that Linux doesn’t work for, therefore nobody should use it!
Why not be happy both OS options exist? Both have a place and a use and in various ways an ease of use
That’s the point. We want options for OSs to exist, instead of one company monopolizing the entire market.
Linux with 100% market share can’t monopolize the entire market because it doesn’t have a centralized distro
You see similar to Google with Redhat/Canonical. If everyone was with them then it would be a problem
Linux with 100% marketshare means nothing.
GPL is designed to protect developer rights, not user rights.
If google packaged your linux distro and sold it through the play store bundled with their own apps and sandboxed everything and called it chromeOS, your rights would not be any better protected.
Security and privacy involves users making informed choices to protect themselves, full stop.
Woosh…
What use is there for the others?
My workplace is transitioning a bunch of their data and processing to the cloud. When I look at what software makes the cloud work, there is soooo much open source software there. Big business is quite comfortable with FOSS
Any of thousands of people can say this but i don’t see it in the comments below so: I’ve been using a Linux Mint / Windows dual boot system for over 10 years and love it. I think a lot of people see Linux as highly technical, but versions like Mint and Ubuntu are more carefree than Windows nowadays.
Sure but Google also uses tons of open source - android is built on the linux kernel, and even chrome is or is based on open source:
We have firefox, iceweasel, fennec (android). Anything else not firefox based is chrome based. Don’t get tricked by opera and similars.
You can still change browser.
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There is an issue with monoculture of rendering engines. Developers assume every browser have the same things implemented and start to build around this assumption. Also Google can dictate how the web looks like.
Exactly, we’ve seen this previously with Internet explorer.
And Netscape before that, it had reached 90% market share.
You’re missing the point. Netscape implemented the html standard, they didn’t introduce new, proprietary “features” to gain that market share.
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There are two things to consider here:
- Adherence to Standards
- Creating artificial “feature” based defacto standards
Chrome offers adherence to standards as one of their features. But it also introduces new features that look like standards, meant to increase profits for the parent company.
Chrome offers adherence to standards as one of their features. But it also introduces new features that look like standards, meant to increase profits for the parent company.
VB.Net was exactly that. Difference being Microsoft’s interest was locking companies and governments onto Microsoft’s enterprise products vs Google’s user tracking. Easy, quick internal web app put together in half a day? Would never work right on Netscape. It takes work to make them work to standards.
Using chromium based browsers keeps power over web standards and such in google’s hands, i.e enforces their ever growing monopoly. So if you want a competitive/fair environment on the web, it’s best to avoid them altogether and stick to firefox or safari.
Aren’t Firefox funded by Google in order to present a false sense of competition in the browser market?
Google pays to be the default search in Firefox, it was Bing for a while.
Also it pays to keep mozilla alive.It helps in defending anti-competitive lawsuits.
Sad to say there are only two engines available for the open web.(Not considering Safari as that is only available on apple)
The WebKit engine Safari uses is still open source, Gnome Web and Konqueror use it. It definitely has a small non-apple userbase but it’s an option
Funny you mention Safari, because you know, Safari is the only browser allowed on iOS. Every other browser has to use Safari to render web pages if they want to be in App Store - once again the only allowed source of packages.
Safari on iOS is literally worse than IE and Chrome combined.
Unfortunately for Android, Chromium based browsers are, at the moment, significantly more secure than Firefox based ones.
Edit: For the people down voting me, feel free to make a principled stand to avoid Chromium browsers on Android, just understand the risks. Again, specifically for Android. Here’s some reading:
Sadly it is still a problem. Fortunately there are some pretty good mobile browsers like Cromite available!
RIP Bromite
Mulch is pretty solid as well.
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Unless the developers of other browsers take specific steps, the ad engine will get pulled on the next update of their Chromium engine, that’s the problem.
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It’s in Chromium, the other browsers have just disabled/patched it out: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/main/components/privacy_sandbox/privacy_sandbox_prefs.h
// Un-synced boolean pref indicating if Topics API is enabled.
inline constexpr char kPrivacySandboxM1TopicsEnabled[] = “privacy_sandbox.m1.topics_enabled”;`
e.g. Vivaldi:
https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/heads-up-googles-going-off-topics-again/
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They have forked it though? That’s why almost all the other Chromium-based ones don’t have this enabled by default or completely disable it (even if you tried to turn it on).
If you’re talking about forking the entire project and using it as a base that diverges from what Google does, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Not even Microsoft with their billions had the desire to maintain a totally separate engine anymore and I don’t see the other Chromium-based browsers redirecting efforts from useful things like better UIs, privacy enhancements, etc into just keeping feature/performance parity.
They’re based on Chromium, Not Google’s altered version of it.
Safari isn’t Chromium based! But I’m not a fan of it on Desktop, just iOS.
Firefox for all my other devices.
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Been using it exclusively for a few years now, I’m pretty happy with it
It’s the only search engine i use.
You guys are way to late to quit chrome, and you probably won’t at this point. This is what happens when you don’t swap, you enable this anti-consumer monopoly behavior.
All the people saying to just use Firefox have zero fucking clue how screwed we are with google implenting the forced attestation for the removal of ad blockers too. Chrome will be the internet. Its already been initially deployed in chromium.
Please don’t confuse Internet with WWW, it’s making discussion like this even harder, thanks.
Okay, still use Firefox
I change from Chrome to Firefox recently on all devices and it was a pretty easy transition.
Doing same thing right now… only two things I will miss are chromecast and page translation.
Good news about page translation, Firefox is adding it, and it’s all done locally too, no phoning home to their or somebody else’s translation servers.
I wonder if there’s an extension for Chromecast support? Might be worth looking into
Good news about page translation, Firefox is adding it, and it’s all done locally too, no phoning home to their or somebody else’s translation servers.
Till then there is this open source extension which provides the same functionality including local offline translation
Sadly, no, there is no chromecast extension (which I am aware of).
Actually there is one, but it’s not very good if I’m being honest ( but workable).
I’m kind of surprised that no open source project of renown has ever decided to implement that on Firefox well.
There is? What’s it called?
Just search for it from within Firefox, from the mods tab. That’s how I found it the first time.
I did, but found nothing.
For translation you can use this. Since you can use Google translation service as the backend(?), it works as good as Google translate atleast in my experience
Thanks a lot, this extension looks very much as what I need. I wish Apple stopped their WebKit policy on iPhone so I could use it on mobile Firefox too…
For the time being I’m using TWP for translation. Seems to work flawlessly
I’m using 2 extensions from the Firefox store, Simple Translate and Translate This Page. If one goes down, I use the other. Sometimes I use translate.yandex.ru as well.
I think libretranslate has a extension but I could be wrong
only two things I will miss are chromecast and page translation.
You can use your phone to start the chromecasting, and translate.google.com lets you also put in a weblink to translate a whole page at once.
the main thing holding me back is the password manager in Chrome and having to basically use 2 browsers as passwords are slowly saved to a new system
Do yourself a favour and get Bitwarden or similar. Browser password managers are way too vulnerable.
I’ve only had issues with Nordpass crashing occasionally when auto-filling, but it’s otherwise pretty seamless
The only issue is I have to keep a chromium browser because there are a few sites that Firefox has issues with. But the vast majority work fine.
Can you not use those sites? The reason they don’t work is because there userbase uses chrome.
Unfortunately I’m not in the business of working for them. They are mostly govt sites in my country and we simply have to work with them sometimes. Their web devs are underpaid general workers who know a bit of Joomla but added this and that shit to the point that it works only on Chrome.
Use Edge.
Use Ublock if you haven’t (Firefox extension)
- Ublock Origin, not Ublock
Is there just a Ublock? I’ve only ever seen Ublock origin
Lol nice. People using chrome be like
That’s clever meme template usage if I’ve ever seen one
does this happen on Linux too?
i have to keep chrome around for sites that breaks with ff / ublock, but i only open it when i need it.
I have a chromium install lying around for that. Bizarrely the online conferencing tool my bank uses has issues with Firefox despite advertising Firefox support which is pretty much the only thing I need the Chromium browser for
Use brave
Use brave
Rather, use un-googled chromium. Brave is kind of bloated with all of the extra “features” they have.
Where can I download it from ? Can you please share the link for windows? . Ungoogled chromium for android is not maintained anymore.
Thanks bro
Chromite is quite good its the successor of bromite and has increased adblock functionality I’ve used it for a little bit and it is quite nice.
Back in the old days when a software contains these crap, considered as adware/malware and people get their pitchforks.
Now: its normal.
Switched back to Firefox. Easy transition. Fuck Google.
Every single thing about Google sucks nowadays. Great job Sundar, you successfully turned one of the former most exciting companies on the planet into one of the absolute lamest.
